Getting it
When it comes to the ways in which parents and children are discriminated against and why those discriminations are inherently anti-woman, some people just don’t get it. Kate Harding, it seems, is one of those people.
She is one of the people to whom some feminist mothers may point when discussing the (sometimes pleasantly unnoticeable, sometimes seemingly insurmountable) divide between those who have had children and those who haven’t. She is someone who I personally agree with on many feminist issues but often, when it comes to a topic relating to parenting (usually concerning parenting in public), I find myself defensively reaching for that old cliché: “You couldn’t possibly understand, you don’t have children.” Whilst I dislike that line and think it is mainly unhelpful in a goal of creating positive discourse, there are times when its use is tempting when engaging with (or reading) someone who is just so not…getting it.
Just as I’m sure attempting to explain the realities of race or class inequities and pressures to someone who has not lived through them can feel quite frustrating and fruitless, so too can reading and responding to commentary that comes across as ignorant, insensitive and hypocritical from an otherwise smart, savvy and progressive woman.
Take, for example, Harding’s latest article on Salon’s Broadsheet, which was written in response to film director Kevin Smith being kicked off a Southwest Airlines flight because he was deemed too large for a single seat and hadn’t purchased two, in accordance with Southwest’s ‘person-of-size’ policy. As a fat-acceptance activist on another popular site, Harding took issue with this and linked the incident with the general air of hostility and hostility-disguised-as-concern aimed at fat people in public. Her impassioned, well-written piece shows how important this issue is to her, and many others.
But as I read her post, I couldn’t help but see extremely similar parallels between what she was railing against and what she herself had written just a few months ago in an article entitled ‘Screaming Toddlers on a Plane!’ In it, she discussed the removal of a two-year-old child and his mother from an airplane for the child’s ‘disruptive behaviour’ (which consisted of excitedly shouting “Go plane, go!” and “I want Daddy!”). While she expressed “sympathy” for parents flying with toddlers, she went on to admonish us to at least try to ‘control’ them. Because if she couldn’t see that we were ‘trying’ hard enough? She “reserve[s] the right to smugly judge [us], damnit.”
Essentially, she supports the idea that if a child cannot conform to social and behavioural norms and if its parents/carers do not actively take steps to ensure the comfort of others around them or at least apologise profusely for inconveniencing them (even if said ‘annoying’ behaviours are completely age-appropriate and nothing can really be ‘done’ about them, short of violence) she agrees that that child, and subsequently those with him/her, should be removed. At the very least, she reserves the right to express her disdain for what she perceives as the parents’ failings. Openly.
Yet, here she is in this instance, angry as all get-out that anyone would dare try to prioritize the comfort of other passengers over one person’s right to exist, or allow a long-held prejudice against a vulnerable group of people (who may or may not have any control over their ‘condition’) to be voiced. The collective disgust at the lack of ‘control’ a fat person or excitable child is seen to be exhibiting; the ways in which society seeks to punish those who encroach on our space or do not adhere to what is defined as normal or acceptable; the arrogance and privilege displayed by those who feel it is their right to criticise and complain when they are inconvenienced in any way by someone they don’t view as worthy of respect…can she, and others, really not see the ways in which fat-bashing (and other forms of intolerance) follows similar patterns to child/parent-bashing?
Now, Ruth at Look Left of the Pleiades has already drawn attention to the ways in which fat-acceptance is similar to child/parent-acceptance so I won’t repeat her many, many good points and analogies here, but I urge you to go read her post and then come back. Because I want to demonstrate why Harding’s perceptions of and attitudes towards children and parents in public are as harmful as the perceptions of and attitudes towards larger people that she so passionately disputes in her latest article and why this kind of disconnect contributes to the perpetuation of a ‘divide’ between feminist parents and childless feminists, as it does between those who are of ‘acceptable’ body size and those who aren’t.
Let’s start here, from the Kevin Smith article:
Perhaps they [those who complain about sitting next to large people] even had the special misfortune of sitting next to a rude fat person, the kind who doesn’t even seem contrite about infringing on someone else’s severely restricted personal space…There’s no shortage of rude people of all sizes, but it seems like everyone’s got a story about that whale who made a two-hour or three-hour or even five-hour flight pure hell for the adjacent paying customers.
Just like how everyone has a story of a screaming baby or toddler making their flight pure hell, huh? And, like, the freakin’ parents didn’t even APOLOGISE, can you believe it?!
From the ‘Toddler’ article:
I also believe, however, that unless he has special needs that make public screaming both more likely and far more difficult to end, a toddler hollering in a closed space for a prolonged period about something other than physical pain is very unlikely to evoke much sympathy. And the adult in charge has a responsibility to try to calm him and reinforce that this is inappropriate public behavior.
Reinforce that this is inappropriate public behaviour?! To a two-year-old who is stuck on a plane and is probably hungry, thirsty, scared, uncomfortable, bored or all of the above?! That is at least as laughable and useless to parents as “Just eat less and exercise more” probably is to severely overweight people. I’m also not keen on how Harding sets conditions on her sympathy: “If you do x and y, I’ll put up with you. But if I don’t think you ‘tried hard enough? I reserve my right to judge you and have you ejected.” Eerily similar to the conditions often placed upon sympathy for fat people: only if they are actively trying to minimise their mass and stay out of thin people’s way are they allowed any.
See, those of us who are and/or love people to whom airlines’ “person of size policies” apply don’t automatically envision the discomfort of getting stuck next to a fatty; we envision the physical and emotional pain of being the fatty crammed between two potentially hostile strangers, at the mercy of flight attendants who might decide we’re fine on one flight and a “safety risk” on the next.
I don’t automatically envision the discomfort of the people around me if my child cries on an airplane either, though I am all too well aware of the disapproval. My first duty is to my children and their well-being, not the flight enjoyment of those surrounding us. I do my best to minimise noise and disturbance but if, like what happened to me the last time I flew, my child is crying and howling because she was woken (in the middle of the night according to her body clock) by the flight attendant and made to sit back up and put on her seatbelt, I’m not going to care two jots if the people around me are put out. They might think I’m ‘doing nothing’ by simply sitting there with a hand on her shoulder, waiting for the upset to pass, but what they don’t know is that if I had kept shushing and fussing and cajoling, the wails would have undoubtedly gotten even louder. Funnily enough, some parents know their kids better than perfect strangers and what appears to be ‘ignoring’ to an outsider is actually preventing things from escalating further. The stares, the mutters, the annoyed glances, the outright commands to “shut that kid up”…these make for a pretty tense flying situation too. I would expect someone who has endured the same but for body size to be a bit more sympathetic to the enormous strain and embarrassment this causes the concerned party.
…the risk of smaller-scale humiliations — sitting next to someone who complains about their size; absorbing flight attendants’ naked disdain; overhearing someone say “I hope I don’t have to sit next to her”; being told, as Smith’s seatmate on his later flight was, that they should really purchase two seats in the future to avoid making other people uncomfortable; plus the aforementioned dirty looks and heavy sighs — is often enough to keep them at home.
Yep, know that feeling too. One man, on approaching his seat across the aisle from me and my six-month-old daughter, who was happily smiling and looking around, commented very loudly to his wife, “Oh great, we’re sitting next to a baby. See if we can change seats when the flight attendant comes by.” When they weren’t able to change seats, many heavy sighs and dirty looks ensued for the duration of the flight whenever my daughter made so much as a peep. I remember sitting there, tears silently coursing down my cheeks, as I held my finally-asleep baby — unable to move, go to the bathroom, eat, drink or read for fear of waking her and invoking the wrath of that horrid man. It made me forever fearful of the reactions of people around me and made me question whether I was the selfish one for wanting to go visit my family.
In the last paragraph of the Kevin Smith piece, Harding’s emotions come to the surface. Her rage at the lack of human decency and understanding becomes apparent and she says:
And I read comments from lots of people who are less openly hateful, but still think that fat people should buy two seats or lose weight or stay home — not that the airline has any responsibility to, say, ensure that adequate seating is available for everyone or treat people of all sizes like equal (not to mention individual) human beings — and you know what I think? Forgive me, but sometimes there’s no other way to say it: Fuck you. That’s what I think.
Sing it, sister! I agree with you 100%. I too wish that airplanes (and many other public spaces) were more accommodating of larger people, those with disabilities, families…the way most things are modelled on one body and type and under the assumption that one is travelling alone is very frustrating. I just wish you could apply those same strong feelings about accepting our bodies for what they are to accepting children and the nature of parenting for what they are. I wish you could be open-minded enough to know that even if you never experience parenting first-hand, it is something that you share a common bond with; that you (and all people) have a vested interest in making parents and children feel more welcome and included in our society, not ostracised. Those who were unaccepted for what they were as children can become the very people you struggle against now — the rigid, the selfish, the unkind. Setting out prescriptive behaviours and expectations for one group of people according to how their presence impacts others, not according to what is best or appropriate for them, is exactly what feminism (and fat-acceptance) strives to eradicate.
Just as you don’t want to be judged for your size, nor do we want to be judged for our reproductive and parenting choices, especially by those who haven’t walked a yard in our shoes, let alone a mile. In a homogenized world, I suppose everyone would be thin, every child would sit quietly and every parent would happily and healthily manage to work and bring up their children. But we don’t live in that world nor would any of us want to, I imagine.
As feminists, we celebrate diversity, challenge privilege and patriarchy and constantly question our own prejudices in order to grow and become better allies to those on the outside who need our help most. We mind our language, respect those with different needs, backgrounds and experiences from us and know when to say “I haven’t lived that. Tell me how I can stand with you and help you battle these injustices.”
In order to do that we need to become invested in fights that are not our ‘own,’ look for connections and similarities instead of divergences and dissimilarities. We need a feminism that ‘gets it’, or at least tries to. Not just about fat, not just about kids, but all of it. Because if we can’t support these basic tenets, and each other, what hope do we have of changing anything at all?

Wow, I don’t know if this would have ever occurred to me – to equate mother/child hate with fat hate – but it makes perfect, perfect sense. Well said.
And to that guy that said, “Oh great, we’re sitting next to a baby” – I would have turned to my fellow passenger – or, hell, even my baby – and said, “Oh great, we’re sitting next to an @sshhole.”
.-= Candice´s last blog ..The Frustrations of Secret Rehab =-.
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admin Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 10:08 PM
Ha! I think I probably did mutter it under my breath. I did sort of get revenge later. When dude was asleep I was trying to find my daughter’s medicine in my bag (with one hand, in the dark) and a toy came flying out and hit him in the head. Hee hee!
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This post was mentioned on Twitter by RaisingBoychick: Oh hell yes. RT @brightravenmum: RT @fertilefeminism: On ‘getting it’ and why @KateHarding just…doesn’t. http://bit.ly/b8Ag3B …
Oh wow, I love this post so hard. I read Harding’s article last night and was really impressed, but I didn’t know that she had been so nasty about parents.
It is really difficult to convey the sense of dread I feel when we have to fly, with an infant and a toddler, no less. I thank the lord that they have the segregated security lines now so that when we trundle our circus to the “family and other slow-moving vehicles” line, at least people know what they’re getting into. And yet I still feel like I need to apologize for everything we do, like we didn’t pay a small fortune to get our lot on the plane.
Case in point: waiting in line to board, I had our smallest asleep in a sling. I overheard someone say “oh god, I thought she just had it on the boob!” Shock and disgust! It’s mortifying if he’s on the breast, yet I’m supposed to keep him silent when he’s awake *without* the one thing that can knock him out? The one thing I’ve learned about mothering is that you can never win!
.-= Courtroom Mama´s last blog ..On Culture, Cuts, and a Coherent Message. =-.
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admin Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 10:10 PM
Wait, there’s a family security line?! That’s brilliant! I would so love one of those. Makes sense. If people don’t want to hear kids scream they need to get them in and out of there as quickly as possible. But of course, I’m sure people still complain that they’re getting “special treatment.” Yeah, flying with kids is ‘special’ alright, but not in the way they think.
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Very, very well put — really enjoyed reading that.
I have to take issue with one point though, and that is the idea that there is anything wrong with the idea of “You couldn’t possibly understand; you don’t have children.” Whilst I agree that it isn’t helpful to actually *say* that, I hate that the whole idea is so politically incorrect. The fact is that is simply true — one cannot fully understand something until they have experienced it — and to not recognise that fact (be it about being a parent, being a woman, being black or white, gay, disabled, or fat) seems to me to be the height of arrogance. We are all ignorant (to a lesser or greater extent) of what we’ve never experienced, and recognising that in ourselves has to be the first step to being the kind of open-minded people that we all hope (or profess) to be.
My second thought on this post is… could you please rewrite the whole thing but change the subject to food allergies, particularly peanuts on airplanes? Pretty please? As I was reading your excellent post, I was nodding my head, but because I identify with all the issues as an allergy-parent. “I don’t automatically envision the discomfort of the people around me if my child [is] on an airplane either, though I am all too well aware of the disapproval. My first duty is to my children and their well-being, not the flight enjoyment of those surrounding us.” How I wish I’d written it (about allergies) myself! In that situation, the stakes are even higher, because the issue is not whether the person will *feel bad* about being a parent or being fat, but whether the person might be in life-threatening danger during the flight. And yet, all the same arguments and attitudes come into play. It was remarkable how well the issues paralleled.
.-= Strawberry´s last blog ..Sympathy from the Little Devils =-.
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admin Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 10:47 PM
While I agree that there is a lot of truth in that line, I just don’t think it’s often helpful in generating a positive, mutually-respectful discussion. Because, really, it’s a conversation-stopper. Even if it’s true, most people are going to either get defensive, stop bothering to care about the issue at all because they keep getting told it’s none of their business or feel their thoughts and feelings are being ignored or minimised. That’s why I don’t like trotting it out unless all else fails. Even then I try to just keep it in my head or mutter it under my breath.
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Strawberry Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 11:37 PM
No, no, don’t get me wrong — I totally agree that you can’t *say* it. It does completely stop the conversation. But the idea rubs me the wrong way, particularly when the people objecting to the idea that they don’t understand because they haven’t experienced are at the same time asking others to look at an issue from another’s point of view (ie, from a woman’s POV or a fat person’s POV). It’s asking for tit without giving tat back… so to speak.
I think it would behove all movements (feminist, fat-tolerance, and otherwise) to stop getting het up when told they don’t understand and maybe consider that… they possibly don’t understand.
.-= Strawberry´s last blog ..Sympathy from the Little Devils =-.
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In my experience, most feminists without children do not get it, unfortunately. It baffles me every time. It’s like they’ve just incorporated standard sexist attitudes on the topic and completely fail to question it, even as they ask society to look at other gender issues with a questioning eye.
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admin Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 10:50 PM
I think more than we give credit for do at least *want* to get it, even if they don’t, quite. But you’re right, it is really frustrating the number of incredibly passionate, articulate, gender issues-savvy feminists out there who either completely ignore issues relating to mothering or get it wrong (a bit or horribly, horribly). But the good ‘uns do exist! We just have to keep raising awareness and not backing down until we get issues we care about on the table.
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Wow, I love this post too! Really resonated with me and cuts to the heart of why I’ve always felt a bit uncomfortable calling myself a feminist. I wish Kate Harding could read this post as I would love to see her response to it.
.-= Platespinner´s last blog ..‘I don’t know how you do it!’ =-.
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admin Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 10:56 PM
Someone did Tweet it to her but I doubt she responds. Would be interesting if she did though!
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(NAK, so please excuse my lack of caps.) excellent post! As a mom of two younglings, I can relate but there is one thing missing from the whole ‘fat person on a plane’ debate… physics. Planes have to be balanced, from luggage to people and I think we don’t consider the ‘buying two seats’ policy as a safety feature but just as comfort feature? If someone has the mass equivalent of 2 ‘average’ people, shouldn’t they have to buy 2 seats to keep balance? if you’ve flown on a partially full flight and have seen the attendants move people, that is why.
.-= Karianna´s last blog ..Thursday after Ash Wednesday- Psalm 2 =-.
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admin Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 11:03 PM
I don’t know all the details of these kinds of situations but I think that if someone is so large that they cannot even feasibly fit into one seat then they know they need to buy two seats and don’t usually have a problem with that. However, I think the problem is a) the airlines keep making the seats smaller to cram more people on while simultaneously raising the prices, therefore making it more likely that an overweight person will have to buy two (expensive) seats and that this is discriminatory or at least very unfair, considering everyone knows that people are getting larger, not smaller; and b) Whether someone fits between the armrests is a bit subjective. One person may feel they can get the armrests down fairly comfortably (even if it’s digging into them, but ‘down’ all the same) and technically that is all they need to do but the person next to them might still complain or the FA might think they just ‘look’ too crammed in there and decide to ask them to pay for another seat or exit the aircraft. A lot of complaints undoubtedly come from the same type of asshole people who complain about babies crying, the lights being too bright, the drinks not being strong enough, the duty free items being too expensive, and so on and so on and so on. Some people live to complain and make others’ lives hell….but should they be able to? Why is their comfort more important than the large person’s right to fly? And, for that matter, why should someone’s delicate hearing be more important than a family’s right to travel and a baby’s right to cry?
That’s how I understand it anyway.
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I think hardings attitude reflects not just that she isn’t a parent, but that she (and many other childless folk) doesn’t spend much time around children at all. Anyone who knows anything about 2 year olds knows that it is normal 2 year old behaviour to sometimes completely lose it, through no fault of the parent. Until we become parents, many of us know nothing about children, and its a shame as it breeds intolerance.
Regarding fat acceptance, as a researcher in diabetes and obesity I do firmly believe that people have far less personal control over their size than the popular media and diet industry would have us believe. If you are thin, it has as much to do with genetic luck as self control. That being said, I see the very real impact that being obese can have on health, and I do believe that lifestyle interventions can benefit the health of obese people (though maybe not their actual size, you can be fat and fit) and am wary of total “fat acceptance” turning into “sit on the couch and eat donuts all day and wait for society to pay for my triple bypass” acceptance. Maybe we need “Fat and fit acceptance,” but that is hard to see that unless you walk around with your blood lipid profile on your T shirt. A thorny issue, and a great article, thanks.
.-= geekymummy´s last blog ..Worldless Wednesday: Womens downhill olympic champion 2022? =-.
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admin Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 11:11 PM
You make some great points, thank you. Hearing your views as an obesity researcher is very insightful and interesting.
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PharaohKatt Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 2:23 PM
The other problem with “fat and fit acceptance” is that it leaves a lot of people with disabilities out of the equation.
.-= PharaohKatt´s last blog ..Name and Shame =-.
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One of the first things I learned when studying childcare: children scream. This is developmentally appropriate. Especially for toddlers, who can understand more than they can express, and are thus frustrated a good deal of the time. Not to mention the fact that, in a time when they are trying to gain independence and push boundaries, almost every aspect of their lives is controlled!
Sorry, not trying to ‘splain to you things you clearly know.
Just want to offer my support and solidarity and tell you this is an awesome post. And if I ever see someone complain about sitting next to a baby or child or whatever, I’ll offer to swap seats with hir because parents/carers seriously don’t need the added stress of arseholes like that.
.-= PharaohKatt´s last blog ..Name and Shame =-.
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[...] Feminism presents Getting it, talking about well known feminist/Fat Acceptance blogger Kate Harding and imploring her to [...]
[...] Feminism presents Getting it, talking about well known feminist/Fat Acceptance blogger Kate Harding and imploring her to [...]
I am late coming to this party but OMG. I have so much respect for Harding and now that has fallen considerably. I truly hope she revises and thinks things over on this one. You are right, she is wrong.
Thanks for the post.
.-= Kelly´s last blog ..at play =-.
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