Women’s bodies, men’s work (part 1)
Vered at MomGrind recently wrote a post in which she relayed a conversation she’d had with friends about whether displaying cleavage is acceptable, inspired by some of the more ‘daring’ outfits worn by female celebrities at the Golden Globe awards. In the course of this conversation, it emerged that there seems to be two schools of thought when it comes to cleavage: Cover It Up, Sister and If You’ve Got It, Flaunt It. The first is generally thought of as the more conservative, repressive option and the second as more liberal and empowering.
Now, this may seem like a trivial issue to some but to me it is actually a great example of a real division within the feminist community and the public at large. Why? Because each school of thought on cleavage has two conflicting ‘sides’ supporting it; supporters who are, in many ways, diametrically opposed to one another. The Cover It proponents are usually either quite socially conservative and rank modesty as an important virtue in their personal morals (often on religious grounds), or they are quite liberal-minded, socially progressive people who think that while breasts are of course natural and an inherent part of women’s bodies, covering up is essential if they are to to get ahead and be taken seriously, especially in the workplace. Many feminists, particularly those of the Second Wave who had to fight to get into the workplace at all, fall into this category (though this is just a generalisation based on observation, not a hard-and-fast fact or attempt to pigeon-hole anyone).
Those who are in favour of the Flaunt It approach almost always think of themselves as neo-liberal, open-minded and supportive of sexual expressiveness and, again, includes many self-proclaimed feminists, especially those of the younger generation, or Third Wave. They think women should be able to wear whatever they want, however they want and whenever they want. They will defend a woman’s right to be ‘sexy’ and ‘feel good about herself’ and exclaim loudly that breasts are nothing to be ashamed of. This is all well and good. I support that view, in theory. However, within that ideology lurks dangerous territory; a faux-liberalism in which supporting women in their quest to be ever-sexier and conform to modern beauty standards is actually harmful, reinforcing the link that ties a woman’s body and perceived attractiveness directly with her feelings of self-worth and her abilities.
A perfect example of this is those What Not To Wear and How To Look Good Naked shows on television that purport to accept and even glorify women of all shapes and sizes, but which really, at their core, are just showing these women the tricks of the trade for getting as close as possible to the beauty ideal and giving them a patronising, ‘there, there love’ pat on the head about the parts of themselves that come up short. What’s so progressive about taking a woman who has had three babies (with the saggy tummy to prove it) and giving her a corset to wear underneath her clothes instead of the less acceptable methods of telling her to starve herself or have surgery? It’s not as bad as the latter, obviously, but it’s still not true acceptance. Every woman knows that no matter how proud she is of her ‘curves’, she must try to minimise and detract attention away from the parts of her considered less desirable and that don’t meet the criteria of perfection. Drawing attention to your large breasts because you know they will focus eyes away from your ‘thunder thighs’ isn’t exactly Body Confidence, is it? But I digress. Back to cleavage…
The other, oft-quoted caveat of some within the Flaunt It school is that it’s okay to show off your breasts, but only if they are of an acceptable size and appearance. If you are relatively young, of at least average weight and without any obvious disabilities, you will be encouraged to use your breasts to attract a partner and garner praise. At Mardi Gras? Show us your tits! At a club? Show us your tits! On the beach? Show us your tits! But if you’re not any of these, or with any other ‘affliction’ marking you out from the sexually available vixens, woe betide you. Wrinkled or exceedingly freckled? Ew! Naturally very large and/or ‘saggy’? Tuck ‘em back in! Too small? Who are you kidding! Pulling up your shirt to breastfeed a baby? Jesus, we don’t want to see THAT! So, still, the message is that ‘flaunting it’ is acceptable but only if you fall within the range of what is considered worthy of flaunting. If you are not pre-approved by the pornulation and empowerfulization committees for hawtness (be it because of your age, shape, weight or race) you won’t get your Dove blue ribbon award for not hating yourself quite as much as you used to.
Even the language we use to describe how we feel about our breasts is telling: Women with small breasts will talk about not feeling as feminine or ‘womanly’ and being unable to ‘fill out’ tops and dresses, while women with large chests, like a commenter on Vered’s post, say that men talk to their breasts, not their faces, and that normal clothes look “pornographic” on them, suggesting that large breasts are equated with not being taken seriously and sexual promiscuousness, which is a common and long-held prejudice that we’re just supposed to accept as the norm.
This leads me to the issue of women’s bodies in the workplace, the main crux of this discussion, for which a second post is forthcoming. I don’t want this sucker getting too long — brevity is not my strong suit and I’m trying to work on making posts more manageable and easy to read. Watch this space!
And in the meantime, tell me your thoughts and experiences with cleavage and body image. Are you a Cover It Up sort of person or a Flaunt It believer? Do you think showing off our bodies is empowering, harmful or a combination of the two?
I spent a long time feeling I should be ashamed of having big boobs, like it was something anti-feminist for fitting in with what patriarchy wants women to look like!
As it is, they’re big. They’ve been big since they appeared, and they always will be, I should imagine. I can’t feel guilty for *everything*, including my natural breast size, and as it is I don’t fit patriarchy’s body rules in virtually any other way!
I no longer feel like I have to hide them away in order to not be oppressive to smaller-breasted women, but equally I don’t often have them all hanging out. I’ll occasionally go for a cleavage, but mainly don’t think about it much. Mainly I just wish I could buy a decent bra!
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admin Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 11:58 PM
I don’t think you should feel guilty at all and am glad you don’t! As a smaller-breasted woman I’ve never felt ‘threatened’ by a woman’s larger breasts, though I know some people who do. Bit sad, really, but I think it says more about how much value we’ve been told to place on our breasts than the women themselves.
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Pregnancy, and breastfeeding three babies has changed my body completely. I’ve gone back to being the same size (I’m genetically very slim) but my breasts are unrecognisable. I so badly want to be fine with that, but honestly? I’m not, despite my feminist principles. Intellectually I know I shouldn’t give a fig, but I live in the same society as everyone else, and cultural expectations affect me too. And the honest truth is I don’t feel as confident or attractive as I used to. Isn’t that awful. Sorry, was that too much information?
.-= Gappy´s last blog ..Furry Friends =-.
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admin Reply:
January 28th, 2010 at 12:02 AM
I don’t think that having feminist principles and understanding the impact of a harmful gender stereotype precludes us from having *feelings* or insecurities about these issues. We’re all human, after all! I don’t claim to NOT have any body issues or ever feel less attractive because of some cultural expectation I don’t live up to, I just think it’s important to think about and dissect these things so we can perhaps gain some perspective in our darker moments and avoid passing on those insecurities to our children.
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I have big boobs, always have always will. I am a successful woman and have worked hard to become successful both in my career and at home. I work full time and have two small children. My boobs do not define me, they did not hinder or accelerate my career. Some days I show my cleavage some days I don’t. How others perceive me is not my issue it’s theirs (and yes, people have tried to define me by my boobs, then they get to know me – and they stop). My boobs are just part of me, and yes, they are linked to my sexuality, but they also did a great job breast feeding. It’s not our bodies in the work place it is our actions and our behaviours. Do I treat the women in my office who wear the make up of glamour models differently to the women who wear glasses and cardies. No. It is what they do when they are in work that matters. We (women) have to behave equally to be treated equally. If we are thinking about what we are wearing and how it impacts us in the workplace then others will pick up on it and define us by it. This may be a simplistic view of the world but it has worked for me.
.-= MuddynoSugar´s last blog ..10 things that make me Happy Meme =-.
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admin Reply:
January 28th, 2010 at 12:08 AM
I agree with you that how well we do our work is what matters, not what we wear, but unfortunately we ARE being judged by our appearance and our bodies, much more so than men, and it DOES hinder some women’s careers and lives. If your supervisor thinks you’re a bit of a ditzy bimbo because you have big boobs, how likely are you to get a promotion over the more ‘modest’ (i.e. older or smaller chested) woman or man in the next cubicle? The sad fact is that many people DO judge books by their covers, even if only subconsciously. We all do it to a certain extent but women particularly are prone to be subject to this kind of looks = abilities stereotyping. I think that’s worth examining.
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Thank you for the link and glad that my shallow post has inspired a deeper feminist discussion. Looking forward to reading the comments on this one.
.-= vered | blogger for hire´s last blog ..Thoughts on the Important Subject of Showing Cleavage =-.
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admin Reply:
January 28th, 2010 at 11:38 AM
I don’t think your post was shallow, it’s an interesting and worthwhile topic for discussion.
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As the bearer of larger boobs (even after a reduction), I’ve had my fair share of people conversing with them instead of my face, but it wasn’t something I railed against – more something I laughed at. I’m a bit prudish, so I am definitely on the “cover it up” side of things . . . although I find myself envying women who can confidently display some modest cleavage (I feel uncomfortable displaying any, probably due to past staring).
I’ve also had the sneaking suspicion for quite a while that a lot of what is sold as feminist is really nouveau brainwashing – like how it’s empowering to appear in a Girls Gone Wild video and expose yourself. I just can’t buy into that; I really think a lot of girls are duped into thinking it’s empowering while they’re being used for spectator enjoyment.
And, final point, I have to disagree with you about your observations about What Not To Wear. I don’t think they focus on corsets/shapewear to the detriment of the subject. Some clothing simply looks better when you smooth your lines out – and I also think emphasizing your more standardly attractive features while “camouflaging” the less favorable ones through careful clothing construction is helpful toward creating body confidence. We all work with what we have and I think it’s okay to have differing levels of how much “work” we want to put into working with what we have. I feel better when my work pants don’t highlight the dimpling on my thighs; I don’t think that’s too terrible to admit.
.-= Candice´s last blog ..Waiting for weight gain =-.
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admin Reply:
January 28th, 2010 at 11:44 AM
I completely agree with you about the Girls Gone Wild thing. The ones peddling that kind of objectification as ‘empowerment’ are the ones making money and gaining sexual gratification from it.
I see your point about What Not To Wear and, like I said, I am glad that they at least acknowledge that women come in all different shapes and sizes and help them not hate themselves for that. However, I still question how productive it is to help women overcome their body insecurities without any real discourse on WHY they were made to feel bad about them in the first place, or encouraging other people and the media to be truly accepting of people’s bodies, without needing any ‘work’ or ‘hiding’. Until we get to the root of what’s making women feel disgusted with themselves, the number of those suffering from body image issues is going to continue to explode; a corset or a supportive bra may fix one woman’s ‘problem’ now, but it isn’t going to fix that problem for future generations.
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Hmm. In a nutshell I dress conservatively at work, but tend to show a little cleavage in non work settings, going out etc (not that I do very often). As a younger woman I was very much of the “if you’ve got it, flaunt it” opinion, and I enjoyed dressing in quirky, often revealing outfits. It was very much “for me”, rather than to attract men, but as I started to climb the career ladder I felt uncomfortable dressed too scantily. Sometimes now I miss my sexier clothes, I always felt good in them, but in my industry it really would not be appropriate to be flashing cleavage everywhere. I think TV shows perpetuate the wrong image of the professional woman, the example that springs to mind is Cuddy on house; I can’t imagine a senior hospital administrator would wear such tight low cut outfits.
Provocative post, thanks.
.-= geekymummy´s last blog ..Get Packing =-.
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admin Reply:
January 28th, 2010 at 11:48 AM
I’m very interested in why we feel that we have to cover up more and more as we progress up the career ladder. Is it because as we age we are less ‘desirable’ and so are taught to show less skin, lest we disgust someone? Or is it because our bodies are tied directly into our ‘respectability’ and the more we achieve, the less like women we are supposed to be? This is what I’m going to delve into in the second post so I’ll be interested to hear your thoughts after I get that posted.
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I think Candice made a really good point when she said that sexual empowerment is being ‘sold’ to young women, with the idea that dressing and behaving in a hyper sexualised way is a tool which can be used to achieve personal power. Evidence for this can be found in almost any music video – the idea supposedly being that these women are strong and in control, and that men are powerless in their presence.
This is a particularly nasty trick in my opinion. I’m all for women revelling in their sexuality – but when you are being leered at, you are being objectified – and there is nothing powerful about that. The woman is clearly the ‘victim’ in this sort of exchange.
At the risk of sounding prudish, I’m horrified at the some of the content in music videoes, and some of the lyrics to the songs that are on the radio. My eldest son who’s eleven, had a school disco recently, and the girls in his class were singing along to the Pussycat Dolls: ‘I’m going to bring my girlfriend and meet you at the hotel room’…. and wiggling around suggestively. It was gross – those poor poor girls – nobody can tell me this is empowering.
.-= Gappy´s last blog ..Furry Friends =-.
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admin Reply:
January 28th, 2010 at 11:53 AM
I also agree with you about the faux-empowerment of Girls Gone Wild, etc.. However, I don’t share your level of concern with regards to song lyrics. Kids, especially the 11-16 age group, are trying desperately to assert independence, be more grown up and are starting to explore their sexuality. I can remember singing absolutely repugnant lyrics to horribly misogynist rap songs when I was around 13 and I loved to shock my parents by rattling off all the words to a song about ‘ho’s and bitches’. I had little grasp of what those lyrics actually meant or what kinds of consequences they could have for real, live people. As I got older I began to understand that, but at the time it was pretty innocent on my part. I probably didn’t even process the lyrics, they were just fun to sing and dance to and made me feel daring. So I wouldn’t worry too much that any young girls singing Pussycat Dolls songs will grow up to think of themselves as objects. Some will, but a lot won’t.
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From a blokes perspective, I do find it odd that the criticism of men talking to a woman’s chest has the blame entirely laid at the feet of the bloke.
I think it can pretty much be taken as read that men like looking at woman’s breasts, I don’t need to get all Freudian to prove that, so if a lady decides to wear a plunging neck line, should she not do so in the knowledge that it will probably attract some male attention?
Without wanting to appear prudish, the way some of our younger staff dress here makes me feel uncomfortable at times.
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admin Reply:
January 28th, 2010 at 1:04 PM
You find it ODD that a man should be held accountable for his actions (in this case, staring at a woman’s chest when he should be looking at her face)? A woman wearing a ‘plunging neck line’ is not performing an action, despite your use of a verb. Wearing clothing is passive. The clothes do not plunge, your eyes do. So yes, if you gawk at a woman’s chest, no matter how low her neckline or how large her bust, you are being rude, at the very least. Hiding behind the Freudian bullshit is no excuse.
And yes, a woman will likely know that wearing a top that reveals her cleavage will attract male attention, but that doesn’t mean she WANTS the attention, nor does it give you a free pass to objectify her because she chose not to hide her breasts. Women with large breasts can wear shirts with necklines up to their chins and still be leered at. It’s the breasts themselves, not the manner in which they are displayed, that seems to draw male attention. So what, pray tell, would you have women do? Wear tents? Burqas, perhaps?
Or maybe, just maybe, men could control themselves and appreciate a woman’s assets subtly and discreetly, without being creepy or disrespectful. Blaming us for distracting YOU or making YOU feel uncomfortable is not the answer.
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Just in response to your reply to my last comment.
I find your point of view really reassuring. I hope to goodness that you’re right and I’m wrong, as I have a young daughter, and find myself increasingly concerned about the culture she’s growing up in.
I don’t want to stifle her with my concern though – it’s all a balancing act I guess.
.-= Gappy´s last blog ..Furry Friends =-.
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Pre-breastfeeding, I was definitely one of the “barely-there” girls, or as my small-chested aunt likes to call it, the “Itty Bitty Titty Committee.” Breastfeeding allowed me to go from an A-cup to a small C-cup and boy has it made a positive difference in my self-confidence/esteem.
That increase in esteem came simply from the fact that I could look “normal” in clothes. I’ve always been heavier on the bottom (used to be because of muscle, now its just plain ol’ fat) and it was so hard finding clothes that worked. Dresses never fit right as the straps would be falling down constantly, while the bottom would be clinging quite inappropriately to my under-age bottom.
For that reason and more, I agree with Candice on the What Not To Wear show. I like it because they actually put plus-sized women on there and show how clothes can be flattering, not a hellish experience. A corset for a night out on the town can be good. Using it as a daily tool to hide what you really look like…not so good.
Back to the subject of cleavage, I believe there is always a happy medium. Less can definitely be more, but it is nice to show a little. It can make you feel feminine (shapely breasts are a female physiological trait after all) but without feeling slutty.
Its similar to the corset/clothing thing…I own a cleavage-creating bra, but I don’t wear it regularly. (Hell, I don’t even wear any kind of bra regularly.)
Your question: “Do you think showing off our bodies is empowering, harmful or a combination of the two?”
Definitely a combination. It depends entirely on the reasons why its being showed off and how it is showed off.
.-= Lisa´s last blog ..Mosaic for my Husband =-.
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admin Reply:
January 31st, 2010 at 1:57 PM
I see your point about using something like a corset for a special night out and appreciate that they’re not telling women to ‘hide’ themselves every day, but something about that show still doesn’t sit right with me.
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[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Vered DeLeeuw, Amity Reed and Fertile Feminism, Fertile Feminism. Fertile Feminism said: New on Fertile Feminism: Women's bodies, men's work, pt 1. A discussion on cleavage, inspired by @Vered http://bit.ly/a1bLVO [...]
Bill, I find your attitude abhorrent. It is the kind of thinking which leads to victim blaming. If a man cannot stop himself from inappropriate staring, even in the workplace where this is at the very least unprofessional, and this failure of HIS is somehow a woman’s fault… Then where does the responsibility lie for harrassment, assault, rape? There is no question that the perpetrator – and only the perpetrator – must be held accountable for these crimes. Personal responsibility therefore must also lie with the perpetrator for the social crime of staring.
You may be tempted to scoff at this…afterall, breasts aren’t hurt when you look at them, right? Wrong. The person you are meant to be talking to has some of her worth as a human, a colleague, a thinker and doer erased by you. In objectifying her you are ignoring her right to be treated as your equal.
.-= Spilt Milk´s last blog ..Trust Women =-.
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admin Reply:
January 31st, 2010 at 1:58 PM
Well said! I guess ‘Bill’ didn’t want to venture back after it was made clear how asinine his comment was.
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Hi – I am so glad I have discovered your blog via twitter. I love this debate and the way you write it. I wrote a piece about the beauty industry and how it preys on our self worth below. Look forward to following your thought provoking articles. Now trying to figure out which school of thought I belong to …. hmmmm
.-= Sharni´s last blog ..Beauty is Advertising Deep =-.
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admin Reply:
January 31st, 2010 at 2:01 PM
Thank you for coming by and commenting. Welcome! I loved your beauty post, good stuff. I look forward to reading more of your blog.
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i have to disagree on How to Look Good Naked. i think that the fact that the whole point of the show is to give women enough confidence to feel fantastic about themselves *wearing nothing at all* says a lot. yeah, there’s some emphasis on undergarments as part of making clothes fit better, but *not once* do they ever suggest that a woman should lose weight, or get surgery, or feel embarrassed about their size or shape. overall, i feel the message is overwhelmingly positive – the UK version at least. (i did see one episode of the US version and did not like it at all.)
.-= jen´s last blog ..a puke-green sofa, a complicated dream of dignity =-.
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admin Reply:
January 31st, 2010 at 2:03 PM
I suppose I’m no expert on the show, having only seen it a couple times so if more regular viewers think they are spreading an overall positive message to women about their bodies then I will give it another shot and recant my statements if I feel my view on that show has changed. Now to find out when it’s on…
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We seem to be caught in a bit of a trap. Society tells us “looking good gives you self-confidence” which is all well and good, but it leads very quickly to “you must look good to have self-confidence”, not forgetting “self-confidence is what you need to be happy”.
I would love to see more messages which end with “it’s nice to look nice, but self-confidence can, and should, come from a whole range of things, and even on the days when you’re not feeling terribly self-confident, life is still ok”.
More dangerously, I increasingly feel that the message is that self-confidence is equated to sexual confidence. I think future societies will look back on ours as sadly one-dimensional.
As someone who had a double mastectomy last summer, I have thought about these issues a lot recently. If you tie up your self-confidence in your body, you are on a road to disappointment. There’s one thing we can’t do a lot aboutin this life, and that is the aging process (ok, we can tinker at the edges, but we can’t halt the process).
.-= Iota´s last blog ..Little Iota =-.
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admin Reply:
February 1st, 2010 at 8:02 AM
Great points, and exactly what I was trying to say. Even if it’s a ‘positive’ body image, tying our bodies to our self-confidence is what bothers me. Learning to ‘accept’ yourself (which really means ‘accepting that you have FLAWS’) is still drawing a direct line between how we look and how we feel.
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[...] on from part one, in which I discussed cleavage and how views of women’s bodies affect our views of ourselves [...]
I have big boobs, and used to wear more revealing clothes when I was in my late teens and early 20s. I don’t really think it was about expressing my sexuality, though: it was just what I thought girls my age did. People reacted to me in a sexual way, but that is not the same as a genuine expression that comes from within. A lot of the attention was from much older men, which I did not like or find flattering.
People seem to respect me more when I don’t show cleavage. And butch clothes feel like a more authentic expression of my sexuality and myself anyhow. It still makes me angry that anyone should have to choose between expressing their femininity and being taken seriously, though.
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